Tathra report released to public

Fire fighting, Hazmat
Two Hats
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:34 am

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Two Hats » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:26 pm

Alfie wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:07 am
Generally Keelty's recommendations are a win for the people of NSW. Any suggestion to the contrary is simply putting the population back in second or third place on the scale of importance. The NSW government has very quickly committed to implementing all such recommendations, for this very reason. NSW Government saw the opportunity to be less embarrassed at the next major incident, and subsequent incidents.

Yes, some of Keelty's arguments, as others have suggested, seem slightly contradictory and in some cases are a bit dumb, to be frank. But these only confirm the independent nature of the report. Independent inquiries can be somewhat naive and this is no different. Overall, his recommendations are not, however, untenable and they will persist whereas some of the supporting arguments likely not.

Undoubtedly the implementation of all of the recommendations will take years to establish and it could well be discovered within such implementation period that additional significant changes may need to be made in order to fully implement the recommendation. Few of the recommendations afford a simple process for their implementation, and so ownership of the broader metamophosis is going to largely remain with the services themselves.

From my point of view, Keelty's recommendations only establish the "what and why," and the Fire / Emergency Services now need to bring the "who where and how" to construct a workable bi-partisan system, one would think.
I think you're pretty much correct with this one Alfie.

I agree that some of Keelty's report is a bit naive. Using NSWPOL, NSWA and SES Comms as 'good' examples when they basically only deal with one agency, not with two is one.

But overall, I know that that RFS is pretty happy with the result as the long inherent response delays and communications loop issues of the current system will disappear AND the NSW Govt will fund a workable solution that's been outside the ability of the RFFF to cover.

I'm not sure of how FRNSW will see it. Having the actions of some of it's members called 'deplorable' by Keelty and the eventual loss of funding for it's comms sections and operators would not be seen as a positive I'd think.

But a lot of wait and see now. I know that RFS has trialled AVL's and the few existing RFS Rescue appliances (as required by the SRB) have them already. Wide spread implementation will take time because of funding, then tender, contract supply and fitting issues.

And of course the current 'offer of assistance policy' continues until further refined - it's a one way street at the present but if Keelty's recommendations are fully followed, it should be two way.

Interesting times ahead.

Obscura
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 6:59 am

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Obscura » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am

Two Hats wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:08 pm
Obscura wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:23 am
Two Hats wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:51 pm
Well the FBEU requested the review and went to it with the now discredited Daily Telegraph and other claims.
Can you point me to any stories or news articles that discredited the Daily Telegraph claims? I could not find any mention of the allegations being false.
The Daily Telegraph has replied but it is behind a paywall.
I did not say there were stories or news articles that discredited the Daily Telegraph's claims.

I said the Keelty Report discredited those claims, specifically the claim that the outcome of the Bega Valley fires would have been any different had the FRNSw response been any different to wha tit actually was.
I never said you did I asked “Can you point me to any stories or news articles that discredited the Daily Telegraph claims? I could not find any mention of the allegations being false.”

I was replying to this post where you mentioned the Daily Telegraph
Two Hats wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:51 pm
Obscura wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:02 pm
Just come to post the comments from the FBEU

http://fbeu.net/2018/07/sitrep-212018/

Just on some of Two Hats comments
The truth
From the review

73,223 RFS volunteer firefighters. Really?

The RFS District Duty Officer was not made available for interview during the 6 weeks of this Review, the RFS advised that the officer was overseas on pre-approved annual leave. The Duty Office was located in Moruya, away from the fire ground. It is likely that assistance from FRNSW was initially declined without full situational awareness of the intensity and speed of the fire.
The conspiracy types will love this.

FRNSW ComCen overruled the decision of the RFS District Duty Officer and deployed to the Bega Valley fires without being called out, but as it happened this was very useful for the overall protection of homes.

Finding 14
Submissions to the Review confirm the slowness of RFS call handling and response including submissions from RFS brigades themselves
Well the FBEU requested the review and went to it with the now discredited Daily Telegraph and other claims.

The end result was always a distinct possibility, the FBEU claims 'duplication' so Keelty recommends and the Govt supports a single separate Comms arrangement which will fix that.

You reap what you sow perhaps?
The only two mentions of the Daily Telegraph in the Keelty report that I could find were the following contained in finding 6

A dossier presented to The Daily Telegraph appears to have been compiled against the RFS by members of FRNSW who have taken photos and noted details of RFS responses to fire events for the past twelve months.

• A comprehensive table prepared by FRNSW and presented to the Review appears to support the dossier presented to the Daily Telegraph

Please point out any other reference to the Daily Telegraph in the report that I have missed.

As to Mr Keelty remark
To bring the animosity forward in the hours following people losing their homes and life possessions is deplorable.
I agree and would be interested to find out who did leak this information.

Alfie
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:15 am

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Alfie » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:57 pm

Troy Grant interview on radio 2GB discusses the report from MK also discusses FBEU issues.
Found here:

https://www.2gb.com/emergency-services- ... a-inquiry/

Scroll down to the sound byte.

Alfie
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:15 am

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Alfie » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:44 pm

I noticed that a link I posted previously had short life for some reason. This was the Weekend Australian interview with MK.
I have posted the article for your viewing pleasure (or displeasure perhaps), under the heading;

"Turf wars weighing down fire brigades, says Mick Keelty report

The two agencies in charge of saving homes and lives from bushfires in NSW exist in a state of “significant animosity” and with “competitiveness” against each other, a damning report has found.

Former federal police commissioner Mick Keelty’s report on the Tathra bushfire, to be released today, finds a cultural problem in how the NSW Fire Brigade and Rural Fire Service work together.

“The vision of the 1994 (Sydney) Bushfire Inquiry conducted by the then NSW government that the two fire services co-operate rather than compete has unfortunately not been fully realised, which reflects poorly on all parties,” the report for the state government finds.

Mr Keelty’s report on the interactions between the RFS and the NSW Fire Brigade during the March bushfire on the south coast in which 69 homes were lost calls for leadership to ensure the agencies work together.

An example of the animosity, Mr Keelty says, was the fact that fire brigade work time was used to prepare a dossier leaked to The Daily Telegraph outlining how the Rural Fire Service refused an offer of help from the NSW Fire Brigade at the height of the March 18 Tathra fire, and on other days.

Mr Keelty told The Weekend Australian the RFS was wrong to refuse help from the fire brigade but he did not think it made any material difference as the NSW Fire Brigade decided to go in of its own volition.

“I think it’s incumbent on any person to seek assistance in what was on the day a very dangerous day,” Mr Keelty said.

“The threat of fire was such that many of the Rural Fire Service stood themselves up in ­anticipation. So that must have sent a message among their ­fraternity that whatever resources might have been available should have been put and made available to the fire.

“The nub of the problem is the fact that a fire communications centre in Alexandria (inner Sydney) causes all the deployments.

“There’s a power imbalance there and when you listen to the triple-0 calls, which I did, you could draw the conclusion that callers were being inveigled (persuaded) to say that the fire was in an urban area, not a rural area.”

Asked if the fracas had cost homes, Mr Keelty said: “Hard to say. I think on balance the fact the urban fire services actually self-deployed and the rural fire services were on the ground having stood themselves up … I don’t think the community of Tathra lost out in any way but I think it does emphasise the co-ordination problems when on the one hand the rural fire service refuses ­assistance and on the other hand the urban fire service self deploys but don’t tell the rural fire service.”

He saidhis most important recommendation was that “fire is agnostic’’ and needed to be ­approached bureaucratically in an agnostic way.

“Fire doesn’t respect those (urban and rural) boundaries so why have we got such a heavy ­bureaucratic process where commissioners sit, meet and soak up time arguing about different districts and whether they’re in or whether they’re out,’’ Mr Keelty said.

Mr Keelty conducted a similar review in Queensland which led to the two fire brigades amalgamating, but he advised against a similar move in NSW, saying it could mean that some of the 70,000 RFS volunteers might leave the service.

Emergency Services Minister Troy Grant said the report identified “there’s some animosity and where the relationship needs to be improved is at the middle-management level”.

He said the government would implement all of Mr Keelty’s recommendations".

rp62
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:00 am

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by rp62 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:28 pm

The battle is just about to begin and the Rural Fire Starters are not going to win this one.

mattfirey
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:10 pm

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by mattfirey » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:19 pm

Two Hats wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:46 pm
Somewhat surprised there has been little commentary on this, but the two major outcomes expected by myself and some others who could see through the absolute crap being hurled about in media and in public by others was findings that nothing could have changed the ultimate outcome of the Bega Valley fires -
"The decision to refuse FRNSW offers of assistance had no impact on the outcome of the incident due to the severity of conditions and speed of the fire, and the competing demands for resources to fight other nearby fires."
how will we ever know ?

- and the communications issues between the RFS and FRNSW necessitated a completely new and independent Dispatch and Comms agency staffed by civilians.

One thing that did really stand out though in the report findings and recommendations was Mr Keelty's many negative findings against FRNSW and FRNSW members. Just a few direct quotes;

"Problems Identified
From the outset of the Review it became clear
that staff within FRNSW had been building a
dossier of incidents where it is claimed the RFS
had not responded appropriately to some 110
fires across the State. This Review looked at
some of those events in a similar fashion to the
Bega Valley fires...
So a dossier is bad but a slack response isn't ? Crazy world

The desire to create a dossier to point
out purported failures or sub-standard
performance by a partner agency belies the
excellent and sometimes life-threatening
work of both agencies. To bring the animosity
forward in the hours following people losing
their homes and life possessions is deplorable.
Does the first bit even make sense ? We all know why the timing was used..because governments for many years refused to improve things..and guess what ? things are being improved..who gets the qudos for that ?

The Review could not ignore the elephant
in the room that members of both fire
organisations are often critical of each other
with the animosity at times, palpable. It seems
that the common enemy of fires is sometimes
overlooked through the distraction of finding
fault with each other.
I can't say I have seen a lot of that at the coal face

This contention is made worse by the fact the
FRNSW ComCen manages call taking and
relays information to the RFS. Despite the inter
agency agreements and business rules in place,
at the time of the Bega Valley fires and other
fires complained of by both organisations,
it is clear that the power imbalance of one
agency managing call taking for both agencies
is the nub of the problem. Equally, FRNSW
ComCen forward deploying assets without the
knowledge of the RFS merely exacerbates the
situation.
utter rubbish..call taking has nothing to do with any animosity..forward deployin assets..when ?

The continued practice by FRNSW to ‘self
deploy’ to fires is a cause of significant angst
between both agencies.
When does this happen ? well I can think of once but apparently in the report that was ok

A dossier presented to The Daily Telegraph
appears to have been compiled against the
RFS by members of FRNSW who have taken
photos and noted details of RFS responses
to fire events for the past twelve months.
As earlier,,so what ? not much of a dossier if you respond appropriately

Interviews conducted during the Review
made it clear that there is a perceived power
imbalance in favour of FRNSW who take
all calls of all fire events in NSW and then
decide whether or not to refer the incident
to the RFS depending upon an interpretation
as to which fire boundary the fire is believed
to be burning within.
"perceived power imbalance" by some numpty who can't deal with facts..as we know any calls thought to be wrong quickly get looked into

Call logs prepared by FRNSW of the Bega
Valley fires identified the decline of the offer
of resources, but their own AVL logs, which
revealed the self-deployment of FRNSW
assets, had to be requested multiple times
before the complete picture of resourcing
was understood.
as above..apparently that was ok at this fire ?

Disingenuous public comments have been
made criticising the RFS despite the success
of a number of operations where lives and
property have been saved.'
anyone know what or when this was ?

Of course there were negative findings with regard to the RFS and some RFS members as well, but nothing to the extent of FRNSW and some FRNSW members.

At the end of the day, the public of NSW eventually got the truth and hopefully into the future a better fire service delivery.

The truth ? and I didn't think you had a sense of humour :lol: im with you in hoping for a better service delivery



"

Caveboobbomb
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Caveboobbomb » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:40 pm

Greetings old friends & new.....

An observation regarding the Tathra report, it stated the earlier response of FRNSW resources would not have made a difference.
If this is true why did the RFS accept large amounts of FRNSW resources immediately things got bad 2 days ago.

If it made no difference at Tartha when dozens of homes were lost why did it make a difference on Wednesday when 3 homes were lost?

Who would have thought that responding urban pumpers to urban fire threatened areas would save homes??? Plenty of FR 4wd tankers utilized as well.

Anyway it’s a shame to see FR Comms being penalized for the truth being released (not that the dossier necessarily came from there).

pegasus
Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:48 am

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by pegasus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:20 pm

Welcome back Caveboobbomb we missed ya ! ,Well firstly the Government got the report from Mr Keetly they asked for !..............don't upset the Bushies, :lol: another instance where FR saved the day ,.. Holsworthy......... a few weeks ago.....not a home was lost in a savage bushfire in a suburban area..... ;) .

Caveboobbomb
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Caveboobbomb » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:50 pm

Yeah Peg, amazing what can be achieved by not treating a major fire like a toy you don’t want to share.
Fire blowing up now with the change coming through. At least available FR assets are being utilized, I wonder how long the fear of another public shilacking like Tathra will keep the egos in check for.

Ducky454
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:50 pm

Re: Tathra report released to public

Post by Ducky454 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:40 am

Caveboobbomb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:40 pm
Greetings old friends & new.....

An observation regarding the Tathra report, it stated the earlier response of FRNSW resources would not have made a difference.
If this is true why did the RFS accept large amounts of FRNSW resources immediately things got bad 2 days ago.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The decision to not use FRNSW at the very start of the incident (At which time the fire was burning in a remote area and a significant distance from Tathra) was not the issue. Could the RFS done better as the situation escalated and when it became apparent that the fire was unlikely to be contained? Of course it could have been.

Caveboobbomb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:40 pm
If it made no difference at Tartha when dozens of homes were lost why did it make a difference on Wednesday when 3 homes were lost?
Of course it made a difference, but then again the weather conditions were not the same as they were at Tathra and the fires themselves did not impact significantly on a broad front.
Caveboobbomb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:40 pm
Who would have thought that responding urban pumpers to urban fire threatened areas would save homes??? Plenty of FR 4wd tankers utilized as well.
You seem to be hung up on the wrong aspect of the report, which is some belief that responding Bega to the fire when it first started would have made a difference in stopping the fire. It wouldn't have. What occured during the escalation is an area that needs to be improved and is the essence of what report concludes - The two services need to work better together, not in isolation with some belief that by accepting assistance it reflects poorly on themselves. The sandpit mentality has been alive and thriving on both sides of the fire boundary fence.
Not my circus, not my monkey

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